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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Mar 26, 2021 7:29:36 GMT -5
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Mar 27, 2021 14:27:46 GMT -5
Hello all,
The link to the ESPN player rater has been restored. Thanks to Adam for sorting this out.
Please note - some pitchers have a score 0.01 different from earlier this offseason. In case of a difference affecting a player's calculated arb salary, the backup player rater captured on the board will be used as the definitive score.
Thanks,
Stephen
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on May 19, 2021 8:40:02 GMT -5
Hello all,
I have observed that the highest profile two-way player, Shohei Ohtani, is only showing player rater scores for his hitting performances in 2021 and zeroes against his pitching performances.
If this is not rectified by ESPN - either for Ohtani or for any other two-way player in the future - approximate values will be determined using other similar performances as a baseline to calculate the accurate/full player rater score that combines both hitting and pitching performance.
Thanks,
Stephen
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Aug 6, 2021 5:53:13 GMT -5
Hello all,
I think this only really applies for Ohtani, but ESPN's player rater still doesn't seem to show pitching values for two-way players.
The value of counting numbers are easy to work out as they are linear, but ERA and WHIP less so because the number of innings pitched affects their value. I'll figure it out at the end of the regular season.
By my current estimation, the value of Ohtani's pitching contributions at this point of the season are around 4.95.
Stephen
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Post by Braves GM (Eric) on Aug 6, 2021 15:48:12 GMT -5
He will undoubtedly be the highest PR score ever if he continues as he has, right?
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Aug 6, 2021 16:29:35 GMT -5
I don't think we have records prior to 2019, but I find it tough to imagine that anyone has bested Verlander's 16.3 in 2019 by much (if at all).
Ohtani is currently on track for 19+.
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Aug 14, 2021 4:37:01 GMT -5
Hello all,
With the real life Angels now regularly using Ohtani as a hitter in the lineup on days when he is also pitching, I wonder whether his arb salary calculation requires some review.
I'm pretty sure that this is a new development in his usage, and something that we've not had to consider before.
The problem I see is that Fantrax will only allow Ohtani to be used as a pitcher OR a hitter on any given day. This means that if Ohtani is started in the active lineup as an SP and produces value with the bat whilst in the hitting lineup (which therefore inflates his player rater score) his owner in our league cannot possibly experience/receive all his value on that given day but will still pay for it the next year due to his player rater score.
Fantrax have told me that they have no plans to make Ohtani-the-pitcher and Ohtani-the-hitter separate players/entities as I believe some other scoring websites have. This would solve our problems, as the Ohtani owner in our league could choose to put Ohtani in the active lineup as a hitter or pitcher or both on any given day - thereby giving them the ability to benefit from his value in each/both of those aspects of his game regardless of his real life usage by the Angels - but unfortunately we will not have that option.
On this basis, is it fair that Ohtani's future arb salaries be calculated using his full pitching+hitting player rater score?
I would appreciate your thoughts on:
a) whether this is a problem, and if so whether it is a big enough problem to do anything about
b) what measures you think might be fair and appropriate if action/change should be considered
To give you a flavour of my initial thoughts, I was considering whether a player scoring 1+ in both hitting and pitching categories on the ESPN player rater should perhaps have their total player rater score reduced by 10% prior to the 50%/75%/100% final salary calculation.
If Ohtani continues to score nearly 20 on the player rater score the year before he becomes a 6th, this would bump his salary down from ~$20 to ~$18 in his final arb year.
I don't know if Ohtani's performance will lead to more two-way players making significant contributions in the coming years or whether Ohtani is a once-in-a-century freek of talent - but either way I think this worth considering and if making a change makes our league fairer and better then we should not shy away from it just because it is an unusual circumstance.
Cheers,
Stephen
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Post by Reds GM (Kyler) on Aug 16, 2021 10:17:30 GMT -5
As the Ohtani owner in the league, I have obvious biases in this discussion to note.
I do think it is unfair to value Ohtani on the PR for 100% of his pitching plus 100% of his hitting. He's been hitting the same day be pitches pretty much all year, so I've had to pick or choose one.
That said, I don't have a clean way to factor it in. I like your initial thoughts of just taking 10% off. One other idea would be to take 100% of the primary side for future players, and 75% of the second side. So for Ohtani when coming up with his pr value use 100% of his hitting pr points, and 75% of his pitching
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Aug 16, 2021 12:05:24 GMT -5
I think that an interesting idea, and a potential solution (or foundation for a solution) if the league feels there is a problem which requires fixing.
I am still interested to hear from other owners on whether they think that using 100% of Ohtani's (and any future 2-way players offering positive contributions with both stick and arm) player rater score is fair or not.
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Post by Twins GM (Mike) on Aug 16, 2021 13:56:43 GMT -5
As an Ohtani owner in a similar league, I have been giving this some thought for a while. Since you can only start Ohtani as a hitter or pitcher, there are a couple possibilities for his maximum value.
1) Start as a hitter all the time which would be 100% of his hitting and 0% of his pitching
2) Start as a pitcher on days he pitches and hitter on days he doesn't pitch (100% pitching value and maximum of about 80% of his hitting value)
3) Play the matchups and dont follow rule 1 or 2 above which would be very difficult to calculate so I will ignore this going forward
Ohtani's maximum value falls into option 2. The 80% hitting / 100% pitching assumes that you get him in the right spot every day which I know I have missed a couple days this year. In my opinion, this should be the maximum baseline salary. Should 2 way players have some additional discount applied? I would be inclined to say yes because I think they have inherently higher risk and in a way it devalues the player. For instance, if Ohtani was two players (a $14 hitter and $5 pitcher), I think that would have more value than a $19 Ohtani as hitter/pitcher just in terms of roster flexibility and trade value.
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Post by Pirates GM (TJ) on Aug 25, 2021 22:31:55 GMT -5
I’ve pondered this a fair amount and personally I’m fine with just using whichever half is higher. So if Ohtani is a $12 pitcher and a $4 hitter, I’m fine with him just being $12. If Roland Deschain is a $7 hitter and $5 pitcher, I’m fine with him being $7. As long as Fantrax is only letting you start one or the other, the salary should just be whichever is higher.
There’s no possible way we can parse the “hitting stats gained while a pitcher” and “pitching stats gained while a hitter” to properly value a two-way player. And our lagging salary calculation means that sometimes we have ludicrous salaries for year 6, both high and low. Wasn’t it Dee Gordon who got stuck with an insane $13-14 salary a few years back? And we also get guys who get injured in year 5 and then play year 6 as a $10 player who costs a buck. I imagine some poor GM whose two-way player dominates in SB and as a RP and getting stuck with a $20 salary. (Don’t get me started on the arb cycle guys who jump 3-4 PR points after week 18 is done, generating no stats for their out-of-the-playoffs GM but rolling up a bigger salary for the next season).
FWIW, I’d actually be fine with capping the PR at some reasonable number like 10 or 11. But that’s a more significant rule change.
On the “Ohtani Rule”, put me down for greater of the two halves with no adjustment from the lesser half.
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Aug 26, 2021 6:33:56 GMT -5
Further thoughts appreciated on taking the higher of the PR scores for a 2-way player rather than trying to add them together and/or come up with some other formula.
I will create a separate thread for caps on PR scores/salaries.
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Post by Reds GM (Kyler) on Oct 11, 2021 6:57:54 GMT -5
did we ever decide on how we were handling Ohtani and/or on the capping system? mostly just asking for how to calculate him on my player page.
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Oct 11, 2021 9:53:25 GMT -5
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Post by Pirates GM (TJ) on Oct 21, 2021 16:14:24 GMT -5
Is it just me or are neither of those open to be voted on? Is there a timetable in mind for the change? Since I imagine it might affect Kyler's decision-making once rosters are unfrozen.
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