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Post by Admin on Jan 14, 2018 12:40:25 GMT -5
There is no coordinated story or conspiracy. As mentioned above, my family and I go to church in the afternoon. My time is limited.
Please be constructive and uniting. Jumping to unfounded conclusions also doesn’t help.
Please also think about what appears to have been a trigger point. If the TC asking for additional confirmation is too problematic, then this league isn’t probably the best option. Asking a new GM for additional confirmation is not any sign of a power play where I’ve come from. Rather, it’s extending a helping hand.
Sorry for all the hard feelings. I know that I/we are very imperfect. Let’s look for improvements without the accusations.
I’m guessing that more details will be needed regarding the dismissal of Athletics GM. If Stephen wishes to address that in my absence, I’ll be ok with that. I was probably wrong for my way of handling that.
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Post by meidathemenace (Brian, CWS) on Jan 14, 2018 12:46:45 GMT -5
I 100% agree with the above. I think the TC asking for additional clarification was an excellent idea. I wish it had been used on Ohtani. It should be used going forward. And I think some additional information and clarity is needed on what happened behind the scenes here. I don't think there's a conspiracy. Hopefully the league is eventually stronger for this.
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Post by Mariners GM (Travis) on Jan 14, 2018 14:15:52 GMT -5
Can I also add that for all the people complaining to Stuart via PM, how many of you volunteered to join the Trade Committee this past fall? As a commissioner of another sizeable and long running dynasty league, I know there are never a shortage of critics when I make a controversial decision. Yet when I try to open a forum or provide a means for the league help make decisions, 80% of the league can’t be bothered and I have cajole them into even casting a vote. For whatever faults you may find with Adam or Stephen, they provide means for you to share your opinion and have a hand in guiding the league. Use those avenues instead of getting mad and complaining in private.
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Post by meidathemenace (Brian, CWS) on Jan 14, 2018 14:24:30 GMT -5
I totally agree with Travis that there are constructive avenues for handling this situation. And I do agree that since the TC is a volunteer institution, we all could have been a part of it. I did volunteer, but ultimately felt uncomfortable being a new owner and having that responsibility.
However, I do think that there has been some recent TC activity that has concerned me and several other owners who have come forward both in public and in private. This is independent of the complaints Todd and to a lesser extent Stu have expressed in a manner that I don't think was necessarily productive. So to be clear I don't support some of the complaints that have been levied today. But I, and some owners who have not spoken out as aggressively as Todd and Stu have, do have some concerns about some of the recent votes. But we 100% want to discuss them and move forward stronger than before.
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Jan 14, 2018 16:03:08 GMT -5
All,
I appreciate the time and effort you have put in to contribute to this thread. Adam and I are having trouble co-ordinating with each other due to 'outside' commitments, and will be back with you as soon as we can. I think that it is important to make sure that we are united as we try to resolve these differences, and neither of us wants to speak for the other out of turn.
Thank you for your patience. Stephen
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Post by Braves GM (Eric) on Jan 14, 2018 17:59:52 GMT -5
"Again, this gives the appearance that if anyone calls out issues with the league they will be quickly whisked aside. This just isn't a constructive or promising way to handle such occurrences and looks bad to the spectators."
I've got absolutely nothing against Stuart or Todd here, but this thread is far from 'calling out issues', as it is not a constructive way to bring up issues in this league. Quitting, posting PMs attempting to show some kind of collective displeasure, then, after trying to return, posting the message Adam sent to politely decline this return did absolutely nothing constructive. I know nothing more about what happened, only that Stuart seems upset and vented in public. I might also add that the way in which Stuart quit might have had something to do with him not being allowed back.
I have come to the conclusion over the years that a TC that manages trades will always, and I mean always, have those who claim mismanagement. The Trade Council is truly a thankless job. If you have a problem with this TC, you WILL have a problem with any other iteration of a TC where their powers haven't been reigned in. If you feel unhappy with the current powers of the TC, you should propose rule changes in the offseason. After being on a TC or two, not having to care about the 'fairness' of a trade is a weight off the chest--though I'd assume a rule stating this limitation would be hard-pressed to pass.
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Post by meidathemenace (Brian, CWS) on Jan 14, 2018 18:09:40 GMT -5
Just to be clear, I completely agree with Eric that Todd and Stu handled their respective situations poorly. And I totally agree with Eric that the TC is a thankless job to some extent.
If I had been here for longer, maybe I would know how prior TCs operated. All I can speak to is what I've seen, and I'm hopeful that there can be some progress based on some of the proposals some other concerned owners (not Todd and Stu) and I have set forth.
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Jan 14, 2018 18:26:02 GMT -5
All,
First of all, I apologise for the delay in responding here. Neither Adam or I have been able to get on in anything more than a passing capacity until now. The conversation has moved at quite a pace, so I apologise if I miss any specific points or concerns which have been raised.
The past few weeks have seen some of the most severe disagreement since the league was formed. There are strong feelings on all sides, and I hope that we can find some unity and emerge from this as a stronger group and league.
In regards to Todd's departure, Adam and I were hoping that these events could come to a close without further details becoming public. We did not want to speak ill of someone who would no longer be around to defend themselves, nor did we want to start a circus. Whilst we did draft a statement to the league, our joint decision was to attempt non-engagement. This was an error that we share, and we are both sorry for our choice and that it led to where we stand now. Todd was asked to resign following breaches of the league's code of conduct. In less than two months as a member of the league he was involved in two significant disputes where he showed judgement and behaviour below the standard we hope all members would contribute to our community. Given the frequency and nature of these disputes in his first weeks here, and the attitude shown and language used by Todd during these encounters, Adam and I were left with no confidence that his ownership could be successful in the long term. From our perspective we were concerned that we’d lose the ability to continue to effectively accomplish our roles. If a small request resulted in aggression that couldn’t even be talked down, then would we feel at liberty to offer guidance again going forward? We were of the shared view that Todd's ownership continuing in the immediate term would only be postponing the inevitable, so he was given the opportunity to retain his reputation and asked to resign. This decision was certainly not taken lightly, but given the behaviour we had witnessed we felt that we had little alternative.
In regards to recent complaints about TC, it has been a turbulent couple of weeks. There have been four recent contentious deals that spring to mind, but Adam and I am completly comfortable that the TC have acted in good faith - even if that is not to the liking of every league member. I'm sure other TC members or alternative TC members might have reached different conclusions or followed different paths, but to me these are examples of TC is doing it's job. (I fear it muddies the waters to discuss each of the deals individually here, so I will not) Being on TC isn't a popularity contest - in fact it usually results in quite the opposite - we are asking these volunteers to do what they see is right. Are they perfect? No, and neither would I think that they would claim to be. To my mind, they do a very difficult job to an excellent standard. Their sacrifices for the wider good of the league - sacrificing their time, their inter-league friendships, and often their own trade opportunities - are bereft of reward, and should be commended. The role and format of TC was discussed earlier this offseason, and we will continue to strive to ensure that the best possible solution is in place. If suggestions and improvements are brought forward, these will be considered and implemented if and where appropriate.
In regards to Stuart's resignation, there has been no private communication with him regarding his conduct or that provide any further knowledge of his motives beyond what is already public. It seems clear from his postings that he has significant problems with the way this league is run and the values that it aspires to that have motivated his resignation. Reading between the lines it also seems clear that he is not shy from sharing these views with others, whether old friends or relatively new league members. Stuart offered his resignation, and it was accepted. On the face of it it is difficult to see a future where Stuart's view of our league management and the league's values (and how he communicates his opinions on those) can be repaired. That said, Stuart is a long-standing owner who has my respect (regardless of our personal differences) and Adam's respect, along with the respect (as far as I am aware) of all of our leaguemates. On that basis, Adam and I would like to invite him to discuss in a constructive manner (publicly or privately) the motivations behind his resignation, and how we might rebuild the trust that would need to be established for him to be re-instated and for him to wish to remain in the league as a happy and motivated league member.
I'm losing track a little of the suggestions of wrong doing, or 'clicks' or groups which have an improper agenda. Any 'wrong doing' (whatever that might suggest) by Adam or me is not deliberate, and only with the best of intentions. We work very hard to try and make this the best league environment it can be - often to the detriment of our own teams (not to mention to the detriment of our enjoyment of the league). The suggestion that groups or dark forces exist in the league hiarachy is simply inaccurate.
Adam has always been clear on the intent and values of this league from it's very formation - well before I joined. I share this vision, and it is described in the constitution - it's so important that it's rule 1.1. We value honesty. We value respect. We value helpfulness, and protecting new teams/owners when they join. We value the league environment being a nice place to be. The actions we take are purely to promote these values. These are the values we believe in, and that we are always working towards. There is no place in our league for being offensive or disrespectful, and anyone who is detrimental to the league or it's beliefs is not welcome.
Everyone here has invested many hours in this league, and everyone here has spent many hours enjoying the ups and downs that this game and format brings. During my experience here I have felt that this league is an overwhelming force for good, and whilst there have been some dark moments in the past few hours, days and weeks I know that I will love it again - no matter what solution resolves these differences and no matter what pain is felt as we work through them. Adam and I ask that everyone reflects on why they play together in this league, and think of the good times it has brought them. Every league has it's ups and downs - especially leagues requiring so much inter-personal contact. There are certainly differences of opinion - and strong differences of opinions too - but the league we want this to be is a league where everyone is working together in the best interests of the league as well as in the best interests of their teams. If you want to continue those good times and wish to play within the rules and values of the league, we look forward to many more months and years sharing this enjoyment with you. If this is not an atmosphere or environment that you feel that wish to remain, then Adam and I are sorry if you have been missold in any way, and thank you for your efforts whilst wishing you the very best for the future. We ask only that you do us the courtesy of informing us that you no longer wish to remain involved in the league so that we may offer our apologies for your departure and best wishes for the future.
With all respects, Stephen and Adam
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Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Jan 15, 2018 9:28:20 GMT -5
All,
Following on from the last post, I am pleased to report that Stuart has initiated a constructive dialogue with Adam and me. It may take some time, but I thought it important to share that this was ongoing and we are all hoping to work towards a sustainable resolution.
Stephen
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I Quit
Jan 15, 2018 10:09:57 GMT -5
Post by gepetto69 (Stuart, LAD) on Jan 15, 2018 10:09:57 GMT -5
To all of you who "might" remain in this league, good luck on that. Just to be clear, I QUIT. I have heard directly from upwards of 13 of you concerning my issues with the upper management, the TC (the core four as one of you said), and especially Stephen. I see similar issues among the owners of this league. I will address my concerns once again for all of you to see.
-- The upper management simply cares for itself and god forbid you speak out against them or to them about an issue. To paraphrase what Bill/SD and Todd/old OAK said recently, you will be shown the door if you bring up an issue to Adam or Stephen they do not like. The two of them simply want you to fall into line and be good soldiers. And beware of Brian/CWS and Kyler/CIN simply because they are Adam and Stephen's puppets. Don't cross these two because they will run to the upper management with your concerns.
-- The Trade Council as someone said is the core four. Adam/HOU, Stephen/TEX, TJ/PIT, and Kyler/CIN all take care of each other and when one votes on a trade the other three "typically" follow the lead of the first. This has been shown several times in the past and they will continue doing it in the future. A number of you have pointed this out and until there is a solution to this it will continue. Have you ever noticed when they post a trade the trade is voted on quickly but when others post a trade they will get to it in time.
-- Stephen is one of those owners most people don't care for simply because of "his way." He's your typical bully where he wants things his way and if he doesn't get his way he makes his opinion known. He will say how he does things for "the greater good" but don't believe it. Stephen would serve himself best if he simply played with himself. Many of you know how Stephen is because you have all dealt with him over the years. For example, he praises his own players while down playing yours whenever a trade conversation surfaces. Again, a bully and one who only thinks for himself.
I went ahead and sent this posting to several of the owners just in case this posting is deleted by the "upper management" so that others may see my posting and be warned by it. Again, good luck with dealing with Adam and Stephen.
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I Quit
Jan 15, 2018 10:20:44 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by meidathemenace (Brian, CWS) on Jan 15, 2018 10:20:44 GMT -5
Just to be clear I'm not a puppet, I just decided to try to solve some of these problems in a productive rather than inflammatory way. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Saying that the way you approached resolving these issues doesn't make me a puppet; it makes me a free thinking individual who can take a nuanced view of the situation.
Far from being a puppet, I am also currently considering resigning from the league myself based on some of the concerns I have expressed, amongst some other considerations.
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I Quit
Jan 15, 2018 10:25:20 GMT -5
Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Jan 15, 2018 10:25:20 GMT -5
All, I am disappointed with Stuart's response to our genuine olive branch. Given the anger and accusations he has expressed towards myself and Adam, it took humility to give him another chance and invite him to work with us to better the problems that he sees in the league. I will publish the full transcript of our discussions since last evening here, and the league can judge whether this league is where they wish to remain based on how we have met this conflict (and our post at ), or whether this is not an environment that they wish to be part of. With greatest respect, Stephen
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I Quit
Jan 15, 2018 10:26:32 GMT -5
Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Jan 15, 2018 10:26:32 GMT -5
I'll be the first one to extend an internet handshake to the two of you right here right now. I just read Stephen's posting so I haven't had time to think anything through so this is simply coming from me to you guys. I must say I was quite rattled last night and I won't lie, my emotions got the best of me. Adam we spoke several times last night and you know exactly how I felt, kinda feel the same way right now to be upfront that what triggered my outburst was the 11 word acceptance of TJ's trade agreement after the issue Stephen and Todd had recently. TJ and I spoke in length last night and now we understand each other much better. I hope you both know I don't lie and I don't BS people, I try my best to be upfront and honest with people and I know sometimes this is a fault of mine. Adam, I reached out this morning after sleeping off my frustrations and I wanted to return. I was upset when you stated I burned bridges and then you gave me directions to another league. I'm not one to write a lot and I'm not one to talk a lot but when I have something to say I'm pretty straightforward with my remarks. Yes Stephen I have had some ill feelings towards you in the past and I would love to move on from them starting now. So I personally apologize to you and Adam for the way I behaved and I will watch my Ps & Qs in the future. I will make an effort to be more resolved in my discussions. The bottom line with me returning to my team is this, I love this league simply because it's so unique. This league alone takes up most of my free time in baseball and I'm sure you can attest to this only because of the way I keep my team page. I would like to see this through instead of someone else. I have no issue whatsoever if you guys have any questions for me.
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I Quit
Jan 15, 2018 10:26:45 GMT -5
Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Jan 15, 2018 10:26:45 GMT -5
Stuart, Thank you for your message and your honesty. Adam has asked me to take the lead with this, so right off the bat I apologise that this will probably be my last message this evening as it is already past midnight for me. I am sorry that this will slow our progress slightly, but we have a lot to discuss and I expect this may take some back-and-forth between us which may span a couple of days. In the capacity of representing us both, I intend to speak as honestly as you have. I am really pleased that you have reached out to us following our recent post, and return your internet handshake. I appreciate and accept your apologies, and I too apologise for my own part in the rift in our relationship. I would like nothing more than to move on from our personal differences. In terms of how to proceed, I feel that it is important that we clearly and plainly understand each other and that we have a shared goal. To me, having you return to the league but remaining unhappy with the league leadership and TC is not a desirable outcome. I want us both to leave this discussion optimistic that we can enjoy a healthy, long-standing relationship for years to come, and that your concerns (and the concerns of others that you have spoken on behalf of) are taken seriously and acted upon where possible and appropriate. First I would like us to talk about the past to fully appreciate the frustrations that triggered your resignation, and then work together in talking about the future to try and establish viable solutions which would restore your faith in the league, and the faith of others who share your frustrations. I apologise that I am now going to ask you to at least some extent repeat yourself, but I feel that in this sensitive situation clarity and understanding is key. Copy/pasting from other conversations or threads is perfectly fine if that suits the need - I don't want to cause more work, but I think it important that we be clear and concise. I would first like you to as clearly as possible list the problems/events which contributed to your resignation. If you are listing problems, it would be helpful if you could list examples. If you are listing events, explaining why they are being identified would also be helpful. To ensure that I understand them properly I would then like to repeat them back to you in my own words and itemise them. This might sound daft, but in my experience this can be a valuable tool that helps confirm understanding and eliminate confusion or misinterpretation. Once we are sure we are aligned, we will have a clear list of issues that we agree on and agree the context of, and we can discuss what you would like to see to help address them one by one. If you are agreeable to this approach, I look forward to seeing your list and will return to you my understanding of your list as quickly as possible. If you are not agreeable to this approach, I would ask how you would recommend that we work together to reach a point where your happiness and faith are restored in the league management and TC so that we would both be comfortable with your reinstatement to the league. Respectfully, Stephen
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I Quit
Jan 15, 2018 10:27:04 GMT -5
Post by Rangers GM (Stephen) on Jan 15, 2018 10:27:04 GMT -5
Real quick if you're still on. To be upfront here I doubt I will find examples of what I may speak of simply because of the time consuming task. In a nutshell, my issue is pretty much centered around you Stephen and the way you have acted in the past few years. Later tonight I will respond in more detail but I doubt I find examples. I trust what you said above and whatever else you may say so if you say you'll be honest with me then I will be honest with you and I'll swallow my pride on the dialogue between the three of us. I will say this and you will have to trust me on it. Since you posted the first lengthy response an hour or two ago I have received PMs from others on various ideas but this topic at hand and I will tell you this: I have not responded to a single PM. I said what I wanted to say before your posting and I figure I don't have anything else to say publicly about it. This is all about the three of us. Again, I am not one for long lengthy wording so if I sound a bit short it's because I like getting to my point rather than running on with the wording. This is in no way me being disrespectful it's simply my own way.
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